[Syty] rust

[DOlivares]

Very well...

I BOW to your correction!

The rest of youse better print this thing out and frame it 'cause you're unlikely to ever see its like again....

Your Obedient Savant
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jeffrey Smirz 
To: DOlivares 
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Syty] rust


Dennis,
Since you're merely a physicist/engineer/attorney, your 'understanding' of chemistry is, well, understandable.  You are confusing acid-base chemistry with oxidation-reduction chemistry.  Nitric acid happens to be BOTH a strong acid and a strong oxidizing agent.  The fact that it can "etch" metals has nothing to do with it's acidity;  and it's  ability to react with iron oxides has nothing to with it's oxidizing agency.  Using nitric acid, or any strong acid (one that completely dissociates into hydronium ions in water) to remove rust from concrete is overkill to the extreme, which is one reason it's not found in household preparations for that purpose.  Weaker acids such as oxalic, phosphoric and, yes, hydrofluoric, convert iron oxides to colorless salts with much less danger to the concrete, although HF is extremely toxid to your flesh.  Salts that form even weaker acids in aqueous solution, such as sodium bisulfite/sodium hydrosulfite (Iron Out) or ammonium citrate are usually adequate and about as non-toxic to both you and the environment as you can get and still get the job done.

Jeff






On Oct 23, 2006, at 3:07 PM, DOlivares wrote:


  You guys SLAY me!

  Any good chemist (I'm merely a physicist/engineer/attorney who got better grades in chemistry) knows that NITRIC acid is "optimized" for etching ferro-metals and copper as hydrofluoric acid is used to etch glass.  So-called "strong" acids refers to their relative pH at standardized concentrations... but NOT to their universal reactivity with all substances, especially concrete.

  If I had any rust-stains on my driveway I'd go out and buy a flask of HNO3 and that Flit or Whisk or Shout or Whatever andPROVE that my solution would be as... if not more... effective and at a lower cost and with a less deleterious impact on the local environment.

  But who would listen...?

  Have it your way(s),

  Dr. D.O.
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  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Jeffrey Smirz
  To: ken rose jr
  Cc: syty at syty.org
  Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 7:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [Syty] rust


  It's actually Whink, which is a dilute solution of hydrofluoric acid.  It should perform about the same as Larry Brown's muriatic acid and Dennis Olivares' nitric acid.  All 3 of these are chemically considered 'strong' acids, which is why they etch concrete as well as 'remove' rust quicker.   'Weak' acids, such as acetic (vinegar) and carbonic (generated from baking soda) will also work, but will take a lot longer and may not remove some forms of rust.  ("Rust" is a common term for various iron oxides.)


  Iron Out is sodium hydrosulfite, which generates  a "middle" strength acid when dissolved in water.


  All these acids 'remove' rust by converting it to water soluble salts.  For example, the muriatic acid converts iron oxides (red-brown and insoluble) to iron chloride (colorless and soluble).


  If I was as good a mechanic as I am a chemist, my Typhoon would be running now!  I'm still fussing with that fuel pump problem I mentioned on the list way back in April!

  Jeff






  On Oct 11, 2006, at 7:43 PM, ken rose jr wrote:


    Has anyone tried Wink.. Its a liquid rust remover. I use it to get the rust out of my toilet and it works better than iron out and other brands that I tried! I just squirt it on the rust stains and they vanish before your eyes like magic. The stuff is hard to find..kmart used to have it but i have not looked there lately.. Comes in a small bottle and costs around $4.00. Last time I bought it at the hardware store..Ace hardware I believe. Never tried it on concrete but I plan to cause my plow left some rust on my driveway. Hope this helps!!!
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