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<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4>Very
well...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4>I <EM>BOW</EM> to your
correction!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4>The rest of youse
better print this thing out and frame it 'cause you're unlikely to <EM>ever</EM>
see its like again....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4>Your Obedient Savant
<HR>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=jsmirz@comcast.net href="mailto:jsmirz@comcast.net">Jeffrey Smirz</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=seravilo@netzero.net
href="mailto:seravilo@netzero.net">DOlivares</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:21 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Syty] rust</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Dennis,
<DIV>Since you're merely a physicist/engineer/attorney, your 'understanding' of
chemistry is, well, understandable. You are confusing acid-base chemistry
with oxidation-reduction chemistry. Nitric acid happens to be BOTH a
strong acid and a strong oxidizing agent. The fact that it can "etch"
metals has nothing to do with it's acidity; and it's ability to
react with iron oxides has nothing to with it's oxidizing agency. Using
nitric acid, or any strong acid (one that completely dissociates into hydronium
ions in water) to remove rust from concrete is overkill to the extreme, which is
one reason it's not found in household preparations for that purpose.
Weaker acids such as oxalic, phosphoric and, yes, hydrofluoric, convert iron
oxides to colorless salts with much less danger to the concrete, although HF is
extremely toxid to your flesh. Salts that form even weaker acids in
aqueous solution, such as sodium bisulfite/sodium hydrosulfite (Iron Out)
or ammonium citrate are usually adequate and about as non-toxic to both you and
the environment as you can get and still get the job done.<BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Geneva; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
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class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Geneva; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><FONT class=Apple-style-span
face=Zapfino><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Zapfino">Jeff</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 23, 2006, at 3:07 PM, DOlivares wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Geneva; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2">
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,128); FONT-FAMILY: Palatino Linotype">You
guys SLAY me!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,128); FONT-FAMILY: Palatino Linotype">Any
good chemist (I'm merely a physicist/engineer/attorney who got better grades
in chemistry) knows that NITRIC acid is "optimized" for etching ferro-metals
and copper as hydrofluoric acid is used to etch glass. So-called
"strong" acids refers to their relative pH at standardized concentrations...
but NOT to their universal reactivity with all substances, especially
concrete.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,128); FONT-FAMILY: Palatino Linotype">If
I had any rust-stains on my driveway I'd go out and buy a flask of HNO3 and
that Flit or Whisk or Shout or Whatever and</SPAN><EM
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,128); FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Palatino Linotype"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,128); FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Palatino Linotype">PROVE</SPAN></EM><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,128); FONT-FAMILY: Palatino Linotype">
that my solution would be as... if not more... effective and at a lower cost
and with a less deleterious impact on the local
environment.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,128); FONT-FAMILY: Palatino Linotype">But
who would listen...?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,128); FONT-FAMILY: Palatino Linotype">Have
it your way(s),</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,128); FONT-FAMILY: Palatino Linotype">Dr.
D.O.</SPAN>
<HR
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,128); FONT-FAMILY: Palatino Linotype">
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 13px arial"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial">----- Original Message
-----</SPAN>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT-FAMILY: arial; font-color: black"><B
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </SPAN><A
title=jsmirz@comcast.net href="mailto:jsmirz@comcast.net"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,238); FONT-FAMILY: arial; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline">Jeffrey
Smirz</SPAN></A><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><B
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </SPAN><A
title=rosekendeb@hotmail.com href="mailto:rosekendeb@hotmail.com"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,238); FONT-FAMILY: arial; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline">ken
rose jr</SPAN></A><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><B
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> </SPAN><A
title=syty@syty.org href="mailto:syty@syty.org"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,238); FONT-FAMILY: arial; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline">syty@syty.org</SPAN></A><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><B
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> Thursday,
October 12, 2006 7:26 AM</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><B
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"> Re: [Syty]
rust</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT><FONT
face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT><FONT
face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT><FONT
face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT><BR></DIV>It's actually
Whink, which is a dilute solution of hydrofluoric acid. It should
perform about the same as Larry Brown's muriatic acid and Dennis Olivares'
nitric acid. All 3 of these are chemically considered 'strong' acids,
which is why they etch concrete as well as 'remove' rust quicker.
'Weak' acids, such as acetic (vinegar) and carbonic (generated from
baking soda) will also work, but will take a lot longer and may not remove
some forms of rust. ("Rust" is a common term for various iron oxides.)
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT><FONT
face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT><BR
class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>Iron Out is sodium hydrosulfite, which generates a "middle"
strength acid when dissolved in water.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT><FONT
face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT><BR
class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>All these acids 'remove' rust by converting it to water soluble
salts. For example, the muriatic acid converts iron oxides (red-brown
and insoluble) to iron chloride (colorless and soluble).</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT><FONT
face="Palatino Linotype" color=#000080 size=4></FONT><BR
class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>If I was as good a mechanic as I am a chemist, my Typhoon would be
running now! I'm still fussing with that fuel pump problem I mentioned
on the list way back in April!<BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Geneva; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Geneva; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Geneva; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"></SPAN>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><FONT class=Apple-style-span
face=Zapfino><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-FAMILY: Zapfino"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Zapfino">Jeff</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><FONT face="Palatino Linotype"
color=#000080 size=4></FONT><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 11, 2006, at 7:43 PM, ken rose jr wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,221)"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 10px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,221); FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Has anyone
tried Wink.. Its a liquid rust remover. I use it to get the rust out of my
toilet and it works better than iron out and other brands that I tried! I
just squirt it on the rust stains and they vanish before your eyes like
magic. The stuff is hard to find..kmart used to have it but i have not
looked there lately.. Comes in a small bottle and costs around $4.00. Last
time I bought it at the hardware store..Ace hardware I believe. Never tried
it on concrete but I plan to cause my plow left some rust on my driveway.
Hope this helps!!!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,221)"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,221)">_______________________________________________</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,221)"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,221)">Syty mailing list</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,221)"><A
href="mailto:Syty@syty.org"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,238); khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline">Syty@syty.org</SPAN></A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,221)"><A
href="http://lists.syty.org/mailman/listinfo/syty"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,238); khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline">http://lists.syty.org/mailman/listinfo/syty</SPAN></A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
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class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Syty
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